More than conquerors! Yet those three incidents all involved Christians struggling with weakness, guilt, despondency, and defeat. More than conquerors? When as far as the eye of human understanding could see across the landscape of their experience, their reality was anything but that of a conqueror! Is that the way it is, for us?

If the truth were told, would our experience be less than that of conquerors? If the truth were told, would it find us about to let go and give up, feeling less and less like conquerors, and more like a junkyard full of broken promises? When the evidence of our lives is to the contrary, why would Paul say, "We are more than conquerors."?

With three rhetorical questions Paul establishes why. First in Romans, chapter 8, verse 31: "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Grand, glorious, majestic words. Unfortunately most of the time, the verse is read with the emphasis in the wrong place. And what is worse, our lives are lived with the emphasis in the wrong place. "If God..."

If God? If in this verse, does not imply doubt. This is an affirmation of confidence in God's power. "If God is for us, who can stand against us." No matter how dark the way, if God! Even when all evidence is to the contrary. More than conquerors? Yes! Because of our defender. If God be for us, who can be against us.

Then Paul adds another question. In verses 33 and 34 he uses the forensic, legal language of the courtroom: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Paul knew from experience Satan never quits. While it is true Satan is a liar and a deceiver, there are times he does not need to lie about us. We make his case for him, and stand condemned not by his lies, but by our lives.

The revival tent was hot. People were restlessly fanning away when the speaker asked, "How many would like their sins listed on the huge black board in front?" Suddenly, there was no motion, no fanning, no one was moving as far as I could see and I really didn't want to move too much myself. Thank God, the good news of the Gospel is, if I will confess, and accept the forgiveness of Jesus I have retained counsel. My case is in my lawyer's nail-pierced hands. All charges, no matter how far back they go, will be handled by my advocate.

I have the assurance captured in the old gospel hymn. "There was a time I know, when in the books of heaven an old account was standing for sins yet unforgiven. My name was at the top, and many things below. But I went to the keeper, and settled it long ago. The record is clear today, for he washed my sins away, and the old account was settled long ago."

Now, now, I'm beginning to understand how Paul could say we are "more than conquerors." Because of our defender...if God be for us. Because of our lawyer...Jesus Christ, who maketh intercession for us.

Then Paul raises a final question in verse 35: "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" With that question Paul lets me know he's been there. He knows the sandpaper roughness of life: disappointment, heartache, loneliness, fear. He knew them intimately, and had faced them all.

And still his final question rings out: "Who shall separate us from the love of God?" The answer he gives is both a revelation and a testimony, contagious in it's certainty.

Verses 38 and 39 tell us: "I am persuaded." I am absolutely convinced, unalterably convicted. "that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, ...nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

More than conquerors. Absolutely! In the face of every possible development, situation, circumstance, diagnosis, or disaster. The passage is real; not being delivered from all these things, but being triumphant in all these things. Even a personal ground zero, when I experienced a heart attack and a subsequent triple bypass. At the moment of awareness and excruciating, agonizing pain I said, "Lord, I'm in your hands." Even at that moment, more than a conqueror. Because of my divine defender, if God be for us. Because of my divine advocate who intercedes for us. Because of a divine love that will not let me go.

Now the full light breaks, our despair, despondency, and defeat occur when we focus on our lives. Paul's questions shift the focus to what God has done. Our overcoming is in God's action. The action of a divine defender, a divine attorney, a divine love that will not let me go. Yes, we are more than conquerors. For as we in faith cling to God, we find he has a stronger hold on us.

Benjamin Reaves: I’ll take it!

Brown: You were good then but you are better than ever! What a wonderful message. With all the experiences that you have had over the years with so many people coming to you for counseling, how did you deal with them? Did you refer them to the Scriptures? Did you give them practical advice for resolving their problems?

Reaves: Actually, I think it’s a combination because I find that in referring them to Scripture, that is also referring them to practical advice that can be put to work in living. But I think the primary emphasis is to help people find their way. Not so much telling them the way or directing them, but helping them find it. Then they can cope even without your presence or your advice.

Brown: It’s like "teach a man to fish and it feeds a family."

Reaves: Indeed.

Brown: Which brings me to another point in the discussion about "if God be with us, who can stand against us." Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. If I’ve become a Christian, a believer in God, and I’m a good person, why do bad things happen to me? Shouldn’t I live a life without pain, without suffering? If I give love, shouldn’t I receive love? Why do I have these difficulties?

Reaves: Because we do not live in a perfect world. The results of sin, and also one of the manifestations of creation, is that man has a free will and because of that free will man makes choices. Because of those choices certain things follow. God’s desire is that we enjoy the best of happiness in life, but there are also the consequences of our choices that we have to face up to and to live with. But never lose site of the fact that God loves us, wants only the best for us, and as the song said, "it’s a love that will never let us go."

Brown: It seems to me, though, that there are more problems for us today than there use to be. I quite often reflect on that. In the "old days" it was more simple. We didn’t have television, we didn’t have the news media providing information to us the way we receive it today. We did not have all of the opportunities to do wrong. Today there are drugs, alcohol is extremely prevalent, divorce is accepted, society seems to accept sin, and these kinds of things. Do you think it is harder to be a Christian and lead this life today than it was in years gone by?

Reaves: Well, I have often reflected even when I was on campus as college president that I might have found it more difficult to be student on campus now than I did when I was a student on campus because the challenges seem to be greater and there is no question that the distractions and the "attractions" are even greater. So in that sense, yes. But in another sense, the basic struggles, the basic fears and anxieties have not really changed. And the basic need has not changed and that is a sense of security in Jesus Christ.

Brown: Being an experienced person, as a president of a college, dealing with young people, and, of course, being in the ministry as you have over the years, life seems to be cyclical. You are no longer at the college as a president, but still you are dealing with people on a daily basis. We seem to go through a period where sin is more prevalent than other times. Now, this is my perception here. I want your reaction to it, as well. Remember the "free love" period that we were going through? Even the students became a little more aware of the negative aspect of that. Do you see that as a cyclical thing or is it a progressive thing and we perceive it differently?

Reaves: I have the feeling it’s a progressive thing. Once we become acclimated to it, the free love emphasis was not so bad after all, we think. Now something else comes along then we become acclimated to that. It is like getting use to the dark, if I might use that phrase. We see things less and less in their stark reality until something new comes along.

Brown: Peer pressure probably comes into that as well. Dr. Reaves, thank you so much for being with us today. You are just tremendous and your message was so great. If God be with us, who can stand against us.

Reaves: Let me say Amen!