When you pray the Lord’s Prayer, you can’t help but come across these words: “Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.” And in case you missed the message, at the end of the prayer Jesus adds these words in the red letters. He says, “If you forgive others their trespasses, so will God forgive you your trespasses; but if you refuse to forgive another, neither will you be forgiven.” Jesus modeled forgiveness and I want to pick up his thesis.

First of all, if there’s going to be forgiveness, if you’re going to forgive like Jesus wants you to, you have to take the initiative for reconciliation. One time I was speaking at a church in south New Jersey and as I was in the pulpit, I looked down and there was this mean looking woman sitting on the front row. Needless to say, I wasn’t going to preach to that side of the church! I shifted to the other side and there was another mean looking lady. She was identical. I did a double take. After the service was over I asked who they were. The deacon said, “Well, they’re twin sisters.”

I said, “They’re sitting on opposite sides of the church?”

He said, “They’ve had a disagreement.”

I said, “How long has this been going on?”

He said, “23 years.”

I said, “It’s a good thing they don’t live together!”

He said, “They do.”

I didn’t talk to either of them, but if I had, I know what would have happened. The first would have said, “I’m willing to forgive my sister, but in the 23 years since this thing has happened, she’s never once asked for forgiveness! Now how can you forgive somebody if that somebody doesn’t ask for forgiveness?” If you go to the other woman I have a strong suspicion she would say exactly the same thing: “I’m willing to forgive my sister but she’s never asked for forgiveness!” Each waits for the other to take the initiative. The truth is that Jesus took the initiative. He didn’t wait for you to come to him. The Scripture says while we were yet in our sin, he came to us and offered us reconciliation, offered us forgiveness. He did not wait for us to come to him. That’s an important theme to grapple with.

Secondly, we have to come to grips with the fact that we must assume responsibility for what’s gone wrong. You say, what if I’m not responsible? Assume responsibility anyway. Jesus did that. When he was on the cross it says this: He who never sinned, became sin. He became the sinner. He became the guilty because this is the reality that every sociologist knows. Only good people know how to ask for forgiveness and only those who have done wrong need it. So that means the innocent have to take the responsibility of working for reconciliation, of bringing the relationship back together again.

Now, I did some marriage counseling in the days gone by and I always knew when the problem was going to solved. The couple would sit there and if wasn’t going to be solved I knew how the conversation would develop. He would start off by saying, “Well, I’ve got to tell you, what she’s done is really destructive to our relationship.” And she’ll say, “Just a minute. You’re putting the blame on me. You’re not putting the blame on yourself. You are the one to be blamed!” Back and forth. Back and forth. If you’re charging by the hour you’re going to get rich on this couple!

But every once in a while a couple would come in and sit down and one would say, “You know, it’s my fault. Everything that’s gone wrong is my fault.”

And in reaction he says, “Wait a minute! How can you say that? I’m the one that did…”

“No, no,” she says, “it’s my fault.”

He says, “No, it’s my fault!” When they come that way they’re on their way to wholeness and reconciliation for a very simple reason and I find this to be true. It’s always the person who is the most innocent who is the first to say, “It’s all my fault.”

I’ve got to tell you this about Jesus. When he hung on the cross, he took upon himself our sin, our guilt. He made himself the guilty in order to make us the innocent. Note: in your relationship with God, God becomes the sinner and you become the innocent one. There is an exchange. There is a transference. There is a transformation that is crucial to recognize.

There is a third thing to note and it’s this. If there is going to be real forgiveness, you must not only take the initiative and take the first step in bringing about reconciliation, you must not only take the responsibility for what’s gone wrong in the relationship, but you have to do this: you have to ask God to empower you to forgive. I’m a mystic. I believe that the same Jesus who died on the cross, the same God who created the universe is alive in the world and if you will surrender to him, he will invade you and he will empower you to forgive.

Some years ago I was asked to speak at a peace rally in Portadown, Northern Ireland. That’s the flash point between the Catholics and the Protestants and the struggles that have gone on for hundreds of years. The anger and the violence between those two groups is something that is world known. As I came into the city hall at Portadown I was stunned because the chairs were arranged in a frightening manner. On one side there were chairs facing in towards the center in which all the Protestants were seated. On the other side there were chairs on which all the Catholics were seated. I thought, “Oh my. They can’t even get together for this peace rally!” I didn’t understand what was about to happen.

A man stood and said, “I’m a Protestant. Over the years I’ve hated Catholics. Over the years I’ve despised them and I’ve done terrible things to Catholics that I can’t even name. Will you forgive me?” And the Catholics on the other side said with one voice, “In the name of Jesus, we forgive you.”

Men on the Catholic side stood and said, “I’ve done terrible, terrible things. I’ve been a terrorist. I was a member of the IRA. I set off bombs and I’m asking you to forgive me in the name of Jesus. I have come to know Jesus as my Savior and my Lord and I’m asking you for forgiveness.” And the Protestants with one voice said, “We forgive you.” It went back and forth like that for an hour. It was incredible!

The last man was in a wheelchair, without any legs. He said, “I always hated Protestants. But when I turned on the ignition of my car and a bomb went off and I lost my legs, I hated them with such an intensity that I wanted to kill every one I could see! And then my priest prayed with me and I invited the spirit of Christ to come in and he has transformed me. I have forgiven the man who did this to me.”

A Protestant man stood on the other side and said, “He’s telling you the truth. I’m the one who set the bomb and he has forgiven me.” The Catholic man in the wheelchair spoke up again and said, “He’s only telling you part of the story. The reality is this: my wife died two years ago and I had no place to go, no one to care for me. My Protestant friend has been changed by the same Jesus that changed me. When he found out that I was all alone, he invited me to live with him and he’s been taking care of me ever since. We have become brothers in Christ.”

Now that’s a spiritual miracle. That’s something that is not simply human, it’s superhuman. And it’s what can happen to any person. There are people in your family, there are friends that you may have that drifted away, you’re alienated, you’re cut off, and you’re saying, “I don’t know whether I can ever forgive. I don’t know whether I can ever forget.” You’re right you can’t, but with God all things are possible. The same spirit that was in Christ will come into you.

I was talking to a group of junior high boys and I said to these boys in a Sunday school class, “The Bible talks about grace, the forgiveness that becomes because of the grace of God. Do any of you know what grace means?” This one boy with a kind of sheepish smile said, “Well, if a cop waves you over to the side of the road for speeding and comes over and gives you a ticket because you were speeding that’s justice. If he comes over and gives you a warning and lets you go, that’s mercy. But after he waves you over to the side of the road for speeding, comes over to the side of the road and gives you a Krispy Kreme Donut, that’s grace!”

That’s grace. It’s giving what in fact is not deserved. Jesus forgave you. You don’t deserve it but he gives it as a gift. We are saved by grace through faith not of works, lest any man should boast. Forgive as Jesus has forgiven you. It’s what you pray in the Lord’s Prayer. It’s what you must do. I say this to you, those of us who have received grace have to be willing to give grace.

Conversation with Tony Campolo

Lydia Talbot: Tony Campolo, welcome back!

Tony Campolo: It’s good to be your friend.

Talbot: And yours! When you were in high school you were a jock.

Campolo: That’s right.

Talbot: You had a personal transformation when you read a book called, “In His Steps,” and that moved you to ask the question, “What would Jesus do?” in all circumstances. You moved over to the wimp in the classroom—you called him a wimp—and you sat next to him so he wouldn’t feel alone. It later turned out to be Ronald Reagan, right?

Campolo: No!

Talbot: But at any rate, that formula, that simple formula, “What would Jesus do?” informs you about forgiveness and other circumstances in life. Okay, so I want to know how that formula has helped you when there have been moments that you found just too tough to forgive.

Campolo: I mentioned in my little message that you have to wake up in the morning and center down on the spirit of God and let God invade you and empower you. Because to do what Jesus would do in any given situation is not always easy. As a matter of fact, there are situations where it’s extremely hard and only God working in you and through you can empower you to do that.

Talbot: But what are those times in your life that you’ve faced that reality: Hey, this is too hard! Are there things that you’ve found too hard?

Campolo: I find that when people hurt people that I know I want to get even with them.

Talbot: For example?

Campolo: Well, I’ll give you a good example. At Eastern University where I teach, I saw a guy cheat in a test, get away with it by blaming the guy he cheated from, to be the guilty person. The other person got punished and when I found out I wanted to just hit that guy in the mouth. I just had to ask God for grace and I received it. Instead of punching him in the mouth, as a jock would do, I went and talked to him. He repented and went and asked the guy who he had wronged for forgiveness. He then went to the teacher and turned himself in. I wish all the stories had that kind of nice ending. But I know my first reaction was I’m going to turn this guy in and I’m really going to make life hell for him. Instead I went to him and asked him to repent and he did.

Daniel Pawlus: Tony, talking about getting even, this leads me to my question about working with the “Red Letter Christians” and especially your work in politics. There was a lot of hope for unity and conversation this year. It’s been a difficult year with a lot of issues out there. Talk to me and our audience about a dialog with “Red Letter Christians” and politicians and how this actually works, because it sounds great on the page but it seems incredible challenging.

Campolo: It’s incredibly challenging because Jesus would put a curse on both parties, I hate to say that! But he would find good in both parties and he would find evil in both parties. As I listen to the debates in Congress and I realize how partisan they are to the detriment of the American people, you can’t help but get cynical and angry. You can’t let that overtake us. We have too many talk radio hosts who are building hatred to the government and cynicism to the government in our minds and hearts.

We need to begin to pressure our politicians to be what they promised to be when they ran. They always promise: I’m going to be an independent voice. Have you ever met a politician who didn’t say I’m going to be an independent voice? But when the chips are down in the Senate, all the Republicans vote one way and all the Democrats vote the other way. At that particular point we have to begin to say I’m not going to give up on the Congress, I’m not going to give up on the Senate, but I am going to take the time to go to Washington and talk to my senator, to talk to my congressman or congresswoman and ask why are you such a party hack? Why can’t you think independently and act independently for the good of your constituency because I don’t think you’re doing that. I think we have to be confrontational in love. “Speak the truth in love,” says the Scripture. You’ve got to speak the truth but you’ve got to do it in love.

We “Red Letter Christians” do that, but when you go to the Sermon on the Mount—let me just be very honest—it’s hard to come through the Sermon on the Mount without being a pacifist. Gandhi once said, “Everybody knows what Jesus taught except for Christians.” And there is some truth to that! I mean could you believe in capital punishment if you believed in a Jesus who said, “Blessed are the merciful.” Why? Because they shall obtain mercy. Everybody wants mercy from God. Are we ready to show mercy and say capital punishment has to come to an end because that’s what mercy would require? Are we ready to respond to the poor as the red letters say? “If you’re going to me my disciple,” says Jesus, “sell what you have, give it to the poor, take up the cross and follow me.” We are people who are not ready to take Jesus seriously. One of my students said it so well. He stood up at the National Youth Workers Convention—15,000 student workers—and said, “You’re about to hear the greatest sermon ever preached.” Everybody looked at each other and said, “Who is this arrogant kid?” He simply opened the Bible and read the Sermon on the Mount. When he finished he said, “Well, you’ve got to admit that’s the greatest sermon every preached.” He paused and he said, “But then we all think he was only kidding!” Was Jesus only kidding or does he really expect us to overcome evil with good, to love our enemies and to not be slaves to the material things of this world?

Talbot: A prophetic word. A radical word. You’ve gotten into a lot of mischief over the years for that!

Campolo: Yeah. I met President Bush once at the Clinton Library dedication. I had the dedicatory prayer. He met me in the back room and he came up and he said, “One of my aides said I have to meet you.” I said, “Meet me? You need to meet me?” He said, “Yes. My aides say you’re the only one who has more negative hits on the internet than I do!”

Talbot: I’m mindful of groups like Murder Victims’ Families for Reconciliation. To think of the process that a mother or a father would need to go through to forgive the person who murdered their child. Or Bishop Tutu in South Africa, multitude of examples. But what’s the moral, ethical teaching, Tony, for a question like: Should Adolph Hitler be forgiven?

Campolo: Well, I hate to say it, but if not Adolph Hitler, then none of us. And that may offend some people because we don’t want to forgive horrible, horrible acts and in modern history he is up at the top of the list of those who have committed horrible acts. But I have to say, the grace of God, the word grace means you get what you don’t deserve. Does Hitler deserve forgiveness? The answer is no! Grace means that what is given is not deserved and if I expect myself to be a recipient of grace, even though I deserve God’s condemnation, I dare not in fact condemn others, less I be condemned myself.

Talbot: Thanks Tony. You are compelling and authentic. Thanks, my friend.

Campolo: Thank you.